Project Takes a Turn

[84ChevyK10]

Well I appreciate your help. The truck will be mainly road and mud. It won't see many trails, and never any rocks. Maybe some day I'll opt for an 8" or bigger lift. I wanted to really raise this bad boy up, but funds are a little lacking. How big do you think I'd have to go on a lift to clear 40s?

[75K30]

Originally Posted by 84ChevyK10

Ok buddy. You are not paying attention at all. Why is a 16.5" wheel so bad? I've never heard anyone complain about the bead. You also didn't answer my question about HOW to run a 15" wheel on an 8 lug axle.

My truck does have a far from stock big block. I did set the motor up to be a torque monster not a high horsepower motor. The cam, intake, carb, ect. were all specified to help increase torque. I'm also running headers, and the heads coming on the motor will also help torque a lot. You don't understand that for something you drive on the road, 4.56 is a little extreme. Even with 35" tires. A lot of people run bigger tires yet with even higher gears than 3.73. **** I know a guy that ran 39" tires with 3.08 gears. Maybe you're just thinking about the speedo. I might try to find a speedo gear to get the right speed, or I'll just have the town cop radar me to tell me how off it is and I'll compensate.

How are the blocks unsafe? They run them on the back all the time, and they would only be a 2-3" block. Explain a little better instead of just saying no don't use them.

The bracket on the steering stabilizer is broke. That's what I mean when I say fixin it. I'm not a complete idiot bud.

And I never said anything about USING the burbon axles. You asked what ones I had and I told you. I never said I would use them. I said I don't plan on using them. And I wouldn't HAVE to change my gears. You guys don't understand that I'm on a budget. I'm going to use what I have and only pick up a few parts.

The truck will have gone a long way. From a 305 with 3.08 gears to a hopped up 402 BBC with 4.11 gears. Only a 2" bigger tires (unless I sell the tires I have and go bigger). Just try to explain your reasoning better. You have your own opinions, but you're not explaining your reasoning for those opinions very well. Thanks.

You are a mis-guided individual. Tell me again how I do not pay attention, and then expect to get the information that you need!!!!!

The 16.5" wheel is ****. No reason to run it if you are gonna buy wheels. Lets see, you stated that you were gonna buy some wheels. I suggested that you stay away from them. They are not as common as they once were, and with a lack of a saftey bead they come right off of the wheel. I can kick a 16.5" tire right off of the bead. You intend to use your truck off road, and this will mean that you will air down. Once you do this, the tire will fall off. Your choice, you seem to be too inteligent to listen to reason, so have at it.
4.56 gears are not extreme for 35" tires, this is actually a better gear ratio for even smaller tires. Lets see, the military uses this ratio for vehicles with smaller diameters. Heak I run 4.88's in a 1957 Chevy with a 572. This car has P275 tires, and I run it in the freeway all of the time.
You buddy with large tires and 3.08 gears is an idiot and regardless of horsepower that pig cant get out of its own way. Just because one fool does not have enough sense to change gears does not make it the rule, this is an exception. Go ahead, run any gear that you want.
My 557 cubic inch Ford uses 5.13:1 gears. I can gurantee that I am making A bucket load more horespower and torque than your tiny little 402.
I do understand that running the proper gear ratio is critical. Before you try to explain to me that I am not understanding you need to step back and re-group. You were the one asking for advice. Advice has been given, and it will be up to your knucklehead to determine whether or not you take it or not.
I am not thinking about the speedo, heak I do not even run a speedo in many of my vehicles. I am talking about a simple mechanical advatage. Lower gears were suggested. It is up to you to decide whether or not you upgrade or not.

Blocks promote axle wrap, and this leads to many problems. They are used in the rear, and can be tolerated. Since this is not a steering axle it is almost acceptable. Since your monster "Big block" is making so much torque (this is usually a term used buy guys that attempted an engine build without succesful horspower results by the way. "Oh, the horspower figures are junk, but I am making good torque". I hear this all of the time, good luck with that. Any Dyno figures or are you just making a wishfull guess?) you might find this to be an issue. Wait you will not be running enough gear ratio for this to be too much of a problem.
Imagine your issues if you run a block in the front? Axle wrap will occur during braking, and since I know you are not running a crossover steeing design, and still running the junk push / pull steering, you will experience bumpsteer when the brakes are applied. See since the axle is so far away from the spring the leverage created will cause the axle to rotate. Since the stock drag link faces the front of the truck, the trucks steering wheel will turn. We call this a problem. Blocks will also allow the front alxe to move from side to side. We also call this a problem. Many states regulate this and make the use of them in the front illegal, but you go ahead, This might just work for you.

Much luck with a budget build. Maybe eventually you will see the light.

[batty1214]

as for lift, you can pick up some cheap lift spring packs( ride rough) but you won't spit an axle out the tail end near as easy... I personally will never run a block setup on any of my trucks..... If your gonna do blocks then I would suggest a ladder bar setup, cause as said, blocks do promote axle rap...... anyway on 40's I woul go nothing less than 10, but I get into the rocks quite a bit... I had a friend get 40's to fit on an 8" lift but we had to notch the corners of the fenders to be able to turn. so if you are planning on going WAY up, I'd go with a 12" lift and 44" tires..... save up for it, and just tough out till you can go big.. but then again I'd cut fenders, and put in cut out fender flares like bushwackers..... and if your gonna do big time sticky mud, I too would save up and swap in 4.56 or even 5.13 gears.... 4.10's will run35's, 38's 40's and bigger, but the lower gears transfer more of you torque to the ground, and you can get them big meats spinning easier. building trucks can be cheap. building them right costs some money, but is by FAR the cheaper way in the end. My buddy just got his 6.18 gears
(or something like that) in his 4 door that has a 15" lift and 44's.... he was running 4.10's, but his 454 was working too hard to turn the tires. So he geared way lower, and he can flat out mud now..... thats actually one way to increase output without motor work.....

[84ChevyK10]

Originally Posted by batty1214

as for lift, you can pick up some cheap lift spring packs( ride rough) but you won't spit an axle out the tail end near as easy... I personally will never run a block setup on any of my trucks..... If your gonna do blocks then I would suggest a ladder bar setup, cause as said, blocks do promote axle rap...... anyway on 40's I woul go nothing less than 10, but I get into the rocks quite a bit... I had a friend get 40's to fit on an 8" lift but we had to notch the corners of the fenders to be able to turn. so if you are planning on going WAY up, I'd go with a 12" lift and 44" tires..... save up for it, and just tough out till you can go big.. but then again I'd cut fenders, and put in cut out fender flares like bushwackers..... and if your gonna do big time sticky mud, I too would save up and swap in 4.56 or even 5.13 gears.... 4.10's will run35's, 38's 40's and bigger, but the lower gears transfer more of you torque to the ground, and you can get them big meats spinning easier. building trucks can be cheap. building them right costs some money, but is by FAR the cheaper way in the end. My buddy just got his 6.18 gears
(or something like that) in his 4 door that has a 15" lift and 44's.... he was running 4.10's, but his 454 was working too hard to turn the tires. So he geared way lower, and he can flat out mud now..... thats actually one way to increase output without motor work.....

Thanks for your input. I appreciate you not being a smart *** about it. I was simply looking for explanations instead of just hearing, "Do this." My off roading won't be hard core enough that I will air down the tires. And, I know how my motor runs. Don't criticize my figures when you haven't driven the truck with this motor. When it's running strong, it'll spin the 33's hard no problem even with 3.08 gears. I don't care what you have. I didn't ask about your stupid *** trucks. I asked questions that related to mine. The help you've given is appreciated but I don't appreciate your attitude in answering my questions 75K30. I'm going to use what I've got instead of dishing out tons of money I don't have. With the motor I've got now, 4.10 gears will do just fine. If I could go lower I would, but I don't have lower gears. You obviously don't know what it's like to try to build a dual purpose rig when you're on an EXTREME budget. Thanks batty for you're help. It was greatly appreciated.

[75K30]

Originally Posted by 84ChevyK10

Anyone have any input?

When you were begging for someone to answer you, you had already made up your mind on what you were going to do. Why bother asking questions since you know it all already?
You were the critical one, and stated that I was not paying attention, when in fact it was your stubborness that prevents you from listening to any valuable criticizm.
If you are not prepared to hear what others have to say, DONT ASK.
Just because you do not recieve the answers that you expect to hear, dont get offended. You were given options and opinions. Take them for what they are worth.
Just remember when someone suggest that the light at the end of the tunnel might be a train, and you get hit by it, that the only person to blame is you.
Run what you like man. Regardless of your budget, you are going to run what you have, and from your replies, you never had the intention to even consider anything other than what you wanted to hear.

I am a little more of a perfectionist than most. My standards are clearly higher than some. This does not meant that I have to have a larger budget, or that my junk is better than anyone elses. Everyone is on some type of budget, I just choose to spend a little more wisely. I try not to make to many compromises, and will often hold off on something until I can do it right. Not worth it to do it twice, especially if it is gonna cost money. Learning to do thing right the first time took many years and many mistakes to help me realize, but I finnal did, and I suspect that one day you will too.
Here is an example of a budgetary decision:
You have already built a 402. Sounds like it runs well. I mean it meets your expectations right?
Was this a fresh build? All new pistons etc? Would a larger engine provided more bang for the buck? (I already know the answer to this)
If yes; Have you any idea what it would have cost to build a similar engine with a much larger displacement? Price 396 stuff, and 454 stuff, and ask the machinist which one costs more to build. The answer is that both cost the exact same amount. Hmmmm, spending wisely could net some real horespower figures for the same investment. Being efficient with a build is often overlooked and almost always misunderstood.

The same is true for your tires, wheels, and everything else. The term, "been there, done that" comes to mind. I hate to spend money twice, and building a vehicle can be great. This can also be slightly dissapointing, after you realize that you could have taken a different path with far better results, and maybe even for less money.
Experience has taught me about certain combos. I have learned what works and what does not. This goes along with working smarter and not harder. But some still choose to take the path of convenience regardless of the outcome.

Again, I am not criticizing you for your build, but do question your social skills. You came at me, and I responded. I will continue to do so and will have an attitude when called out. There could have been a positive way to ask me for clarification, and not the way you went about it.
Re-read your replies and you will see what I mean.
I have yet to have any problems with anyone on this site or any others, and I give honest and reliable data and opinions. If this is not what some expect to hear, it is still the truth. I build many different vehicles and have made many of these mistakes. Sometimes one has to make the mistakes for themselves, before one can appreciate anothers experience.

Much luck with your build.

[84ChevyK10]

Well you just weren't explaining those options well. I liked the 15" wheel idea, but I didn't understand what was wrong with the 16.5" wheel. I simply asked you to explain it. I will listen to all answers, but I do want them to be supported with facts and experiences.

You asked about the engine. The engine is doing great. Of course I want more power, but I could have a 1000 hp motor and still try to find ways to make more power. It's a truck thing. Anyway, you are already criticizing the building of the 402. I know building a 454 would have been cheaper, and believe me I thought about it. I already had the 402 laying around from an old camaro my dad had. It was cheaper to use what I had and rebuild it than to sell it and buy a 454 and still have to rebuild it. And I didn't want to just buy a rebuilt motor. I am looking to gain some experience on this truck too. I started it when I was 15 and I've learned a lot from it.

You started out with blunt statements and when I questioned your answers, in a non threatening way, you still failed to answer them all clearly. After I asked you to explain you started having a smart attitude about it. I didn't want to explode on you. All I want is opinions and options, which you gave me, but with valuable explanations to go along with them. I appreciate your help, and would like to hear any more opinions you have, as long as they are backed up with facts and experiences. Thanks and do you know a place where I can find some 15" 8 lug wheels? I can't seem to find many, but then again I'm not very good as surfin the internet.

[75K30]

I only send information that has been form a personal experience of mine. I too bought 16.5" wheels once, only once. These less common and not so desireable wheel size is becoming less and less desireable thus making tire selection more and more difficult. Along with this comes additional price. You may have decent tires now, but they will have to be replaced eventually. Compare prices for a 15, 16, 17 and the old 16.5. You wil find that using a much more common tire size will be benificial in the end. This can actually save money. Once you buy new wheels, they become almost worthless, and having a set of wheels that use a less desireable diameter means that eventually you will want to replace them. Everyone does, thats what makes them so undesirable now. Performance is just another reason to not use them. While you may not every think that you will ever off road to the extent that you may require less air in the tires, (though there is never a time I ever engage 4wd without airing down) you may find a time there this can become very important.
Most avid off roaders make airing down a ritual. Crawling up odd surfaces, and trails that required speed before can easilly be negotiated by airing down. You may not think that you ever will, but experoience has taught me that situations change. Running anything other than a 16.5" wheel will at least leave you with the option.
YOu may never excersize this option, but will have the option regadess.
PLus when youhave to replace tires, the more common sizes will cost less, so this decision has long term effects.

As far as the 402, and criticizm, I was actually criticizing tha manner in which you were describing the engine and the gears you chose to run. Keep in mind that I do realize that there is a budget, and I understand that you have these axles with this ratio already. You implied that your "big block" had enough to turn the tires that you intended to run. You also suggested that you did not want an extreme gear, but I think failed to realize that the 4.56 ratio that another member had suggested is not extreme with 35" tires. The final drive ratio would bring you closer to stock and provide you with the optimum performance available. Your argument was that you engine was "built for torque", and that you could get away with this set up. I made a comparison about one of my "stupid trucks" and can tell you that this is not enough gear. I run a much larger engine, that makes power well into the 800 HP range (before nitrous) and I have 5.13 gears with 44" tires.
My engine rpm's at cruise speeds are 2550 (approx) and yours with a 35" tire and the same gears would be 2565. Mine does not have enough gear, and yours will not either. The overall ratio is lower than factory ratios and the engine has to work harder to compensate. Having a mechanincal advantage puts more power to the ground, and improves performance.

I actually already assumed that you had an existing 402 that ran, and you decided to install it in your ride. I have done this on a number of occasions, and realized that money was better spent if I had gone a different direction.
The 402 has value to a guy that is building / restoring a vehicle that had this engine, and it can be sold and the proceedes can finance a much better build.
Truthfully the 396 / 402 is the "305" of the big block family. Restoration guys build them but performance guys will build a SBC 400 to gain more power. Most 402 heads are small and cant utilize the advatages of the canted valves, since rpm's are limited. If all out horsepower and torque fiqures are desired, then the 454 is the most desireable. Dollar for dollar the larger cubes are considered free horsepower.
I mean this is really why we do not see any 366 BBC's being built right? The 396 / 402 falls into this category. I will offend many bow tie die hards, here, but the truth is the truth.
I try not to settle for something that will "get me by". I have learned patience and might take a little extra time to make a build work properly.
I am not saying that your build is a bad build, and not saying that it is not any good, just reminding you that you asked for input.
Before you spout off about explainations, and state that we are not paying attention why not simply ask for clarification?
Perhaps a nice appraoch will provide you with the explaination that you are looking for.
Say "hey, I dont quite understand,, but I see that you have such and such a combo, why did you chose that?" Or, "I like the option of a more desirable gear ratio, but cant afford it, and want to know if there might be an repercussions if I chose to run this?"
This will in fact open far more conversation, and allow more users to participate. Then we can see other combos and make some camparissons. Comparissons that can be viewd will provide you with more information to make an intelligent decision on this, and future builds.

[batty1214]

as for not knowing how to build a dual purpose rig on a budget...... dont go pointing fingers.... I built my first truck at the age of 17 and was paying rent, buying my own food, cell phone, and still trying to finish high school.; So yes I do know what it is like. AND!!!!! as I said, it may not be cheap to build a truck right, its worth it in the long run. SO anyway, Go on your merry way with your 402 and high gears..... and don't come ask questions if your not open to the answers that you get. 75 has probably go WAY!! more experience building than you do..... take advice frome those who know...... you'll walk home a lot less... anyway... your welcome for my input...

[mudseeker]

ok, group hug everyone.

[84ChevyK10]

Originally Posted by batty1214

as for not knowing how to build a dual purpose rig on a budget...... dont go pointing fingers.... I built my first truck at the age of 17 and was paying rent, buying my own food, cell phone, and still trying to finish high school.; So yes I do know what it is like. AND!!!!! as I said, it may not be cheap to build a truck right, its worth it in the long run. SO anyway, Go on your merry way with your 402 and high gears..... and don't come ask questions if your not open to the answers that you get. 75 has probably go WAY!! more experience building than you do..... take advice frome those who know...... you'll walk home a lot less... anyway... your welcome for my input...

I wasn't criticizing you. I was more talking about 75 when I was talking about the budget thing. With my last post I tried to burry the hatchet here. I was trying to let it go and now 75 is trying to go at it again. The reason I am switching axles is for a better gear ratio. How much would 4.56 gears, or possibly lower gears cost? Where can I find them? Also, trust me on the air pressure issue. I won't be airing down. Around here it's nothing but mud. We have no trails. If I do happen to find some trails, I will indeed air down. I was simply saying it probably won't happen. I also want to add that the stock 402 heads won't stay on it. The heads I'm putting on it are from a 427 making 435 horse stock. I also had these around. Another quick question is with the setup I have (402 with est. 450 horse, 700r4 tranny) what gears should I run with a 40" tire? 44" tire? Is there a chart somewhere. When I asked you to clarify more, I wasn't being rude about it. You responded but basically said the same thing as your original post. I wasn't being rude, and maybe you just took it the wrong way. I've been trying to let this go, so are we going to let it go or keep going at it? And I'm about in the same boat as you batty. I'm 18 (of course I'm going to get criticism for not knowing anything since I'm only 18), and I've been working on this truck for years. I've been working a "real" job since 8th grade, and this truck has been tough. It's not easy to get what I want with this truck (big enough lift to run 44" tires with the correct low gear and the power I want out of a big block) on my budget. Just buying wheels and tires is hard. Hopefully you guys can keep helping me out, and we can finally let this go. Thanks for your help thus far.


I also had a question about driveshaft angles. I know that the more you lift a truck, the more severe the angle of the driveshaft gets. This causes binding and can hurt the driveshaft, and more commonly make u-joints go out quicker. I was wondering how I can help this when I go for a bigger lift. I know a 6" will still do this, but it gets horrid when you go over that. I have heard of some guys tilting the axle a little when they install it to lessen the angle. I have also seen someone use some weird driveshaft that was actually for farm use (some pto part or something. can't remember) and it had greater play in it to help with this. Can you angle the axle to help it? What else should/could I do. Thanks.